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Palm Desert District Elections Open House #2 (Plática Comunitaria): 2/12/20


– Good evening. Thank you for joining us here. This is your announcement
to make a last chance dash for pizzas to bring back to your chair. Otherwise for those of you
who were here last time, we started a little bit after so people would have a chance to eat. We’ve got a lot of program
to get through tonight. So we thought we’d start
a little bit earlier, but please if you haven’t done it yet or now or later in the evening, go ahead and help yourself
to a piece of pizza, and a beverage. My name is Lauri Aylaian. I’m City Manager for
the city of Palm Desert and I’m here to welcome all
of you here this evening for our second community forum to talk about district voting and changes that will be coming soon
to the city of Palm Desert. Before I start, I’d like to introduce some of our key team members. In red over here we have Silvia Paz. Silvia is with Alianza. (audience applauding) Next up is Doug Johnson. Tell me if I am getting feedback, is Doug Johnson. Doug is our demographer extraordinaire. He is with DMC, and he will be telling
you more about his firm when we turn over the mic to him. And Ryder Smith, Ryder’s
with Tripepi Smith Sylvia and Ryder are
consultants to the city. They are helping us to get the word out to all of the constituents, to all interests and
all corners of the city, so that we make sure we reach everyone with our outreach program. The purpose of tonight’s
meeting is we wanna talk about, talk some more about the CVRA, which is the California Voting Rights Act, and we wanna talk tonight about a new concept, which
is communities of interest, which we didn’t talk about last time. Our goals tonight are first of all to increase everyone’s understanding about the California Voting Rights Act, and we wanna talk about how
the boundaries of districts are formed, how they’re created, and how you get to have
input into that process. We also wanna start to identify the communities of interest, because those will go into the formation of boundaries and Doug will
lead you through information and an exercise on how
to have input into that. Let me talk a little bit about how we got here tonight. The CVRA was introduced and
was passed a number of years ago in the state of California, and the City of Palm Desert found itself with a legal challenge
to our at large voting, which we’ve had in the past. A complaint and a suit
were filed against the city in June of last year. We went ahead and
negotiated through attorneys with the plaintiffs for a period of time, and by December, we
reached a joint settlement agreement, the city Council approved the agreement and its
concepts are twofold. One is that we will create
two districts in the city, one of which will be in
our downtown district, where we have a higher concentration of minority population
in this case, Latinos. And secondly the implementation
of ranked choice voting is required as part of the
terms of the settlement. That is something that
we will be talking about more in the future. I wanna talk a little bit about what we did at our last meeting, which is our first general forum. Just for background, we talked
about a number of things. We learned some lessons and I appreciate the feedback we received. Some of the things that
are different tonight is you’ll see that we have
better sound attenuation. We hope that people are gonna be able to communicate better. We have smaller tables so you don’t have to yell at somebody across the way. We’ve installed carpeting for the first time ever in this room, we have drapes up for the sound. We hope that that facilitate
the communication. But as we go through and
look at what we learned from last time, there were
three outstanding questions that we want to make sure that we address. The first was why did the city settle? In short the city settled
to avoid costly litigation. Doug will have information
about the city side have chosen differently and
who have spend a lot of money, and I mean millions of
dollars going down a road that was ultimately not productive. And secondly this gave us,
by settling, it gave us the opportunity to introduce a novel concept that we don’t know of
anywhere else in the state, and that is the two district solution. The two district solution
focuses our downtown area and the areas around Civic Center Park, where we have the greatest
concentration of Latinos. And yet it leaves on the
perimeter, a larger district, which continues in the tradition Palm Desert has embraced
for over 50 years of unity and community and working together. In answer to the questions, the second question that we got most was, why two districts rather than five? Again this settles the
district in question by addressing both the
letter and the intent in the spirit of the
California Voting Rights Act. It protects our voters
in the center of the city as well as keeping intact
to the greatest extent possible that which has
served Palm Desert so well. Palm Desert has flourished with all of its council members working in unison towards goals that serve
the whole of the city. This solution, the settlement preserves to the greatest extent
possible both of those and listening to all
constituents within the city. This is just a map that
will be seen more of. It illustrates what I mean when I say that the greatest
concentration of minorities, which are protected class, the Latinos, is in only one area of the city. It is not distributed throughout the city. Therefore we are able
to propose a solution that is unlike that which
has been employed otherwise. It gives a voice to all
Palm Desert communities. Those in the minority protected class and those in the greater
circumference around them. And finally, the last
question we heard a lot of was what does the law say who decides? Who decides on the districts? The answer is the law says that the City Council
members need to decide. This is not something
that goes to public vote through a referendum. In those communities that
have tried that approach, the courts have ultimately
overturned their solutions. Therefore, the decision will be made by the five people you see up here. They’re your elected
members of the City Council. And with that said, what
I would like to do is turn is over to Silvia, who
is going to describe a little bit more of how
the evening will proceed. And then we will leave it up to Doug. – Thank you Lauri. So you all have an agenda in front of you, it’s up on the screen. Again the majority of this meeting is focusing on a question
that we heard loud and clear during the last open House, which was wanting more information around the California Voting Rights Act and the process for districting. So Doug will have a presentation. After his presentation, very similar to last
time if you were here, is you’re going to be having some time to ask any questions that come to mind, writing them on the post-it’s, and using the question boards. We have a question board
on each side of the room, and so there’s gonna be table discussions. After the table discussions, both Doug and Lauri will be
spending about 15 minutes answering any of the questions that are on the board. So at any time your discussion, you know feel free to you write them down and someone from your table
can take the questions over. After Lauri and Doug
respond to the questions, you can choose at that
time if you feel that you have got in all the
information you need to leave or you can choose to stay
as Doug will be doing a software demo that will show
how the district boundaries will be drawn in the city of Palm Desert, with a short map drawing exercise, and that will conclude today’s meeting. So with that, we talked
about our ground rules or community agreements last time. So I won’t review them. Just a reminder, the question boards
are there for your use, and Doug Johnson, we
will pass it over to you. – Thank you and thank you. It’s great to see everybody out here. I do this all over the state, and often there are two
people in the audience. So congrats to the city
for getting people, the word out and to all
of you for showing up. So as was mentioned,
National Demographics, we’ve been doing this a lot. Justin Levitt who’s my vice President will also be at some of these forums and tomorrow night’s Council hearing. We did Desert Healthcare District. We did Palm Springs, Cathedral City. So we’ve spent a lot of time out here in Coachella Valley. Let me go back to the beginning sorry. There we go. So as it was just mentioned what we’re talking about
is your election system, you know, historically
you’ve been at large, where if there’s two
seats up, everybody runs. You choose your two favorite candidates and the top two vote getters
win, wherever they’re from. If there’s three seats up
you vote for top three. That’s what the overwhelming over 95% of California cities
years ago, had that system and that’s really why the
California Voting Rights Act has been enacted to push
jurisdictions away from. And so there are couple jurisdictions that have something called from district or residents districts. Newport Beach is probably the
closest one of this to here. There you had districts and the candidates had to live in a district, but the vote was still citywide. So there’s been a lot of interest in that as a middle-of-the-road option, except the state said it’s not
a middle-of-the-road option. It is at-large, you get
sued under that just like you get sued under having an at-large system unfortunately, which brings us to by
district or in your case, this hybrid system of two districts. And this is where the
candidates, who want to run to represent a given district
have to live in that district, and only the voters in that district will vote for that seat. So, that very big
picture election systems. As you no doubt are familiar,
if you’re here at this meeting this is all driven by the
California Voting Rights Act. Very briefly what California
Voting Rights Act did is it builds off the Federal
Voting Rights Act. We’ve all heard of it passed in 1965. It’s been around a long time. It’s very clear on what the, well relatively clear on what the rules for the federal law are. A couple of jurisdictions
got sued by the feds or by people using the
Federal Voting Rights Act in California in the 90s and the jurisdictions
defeated the challenges. So groups went to legislature and in 2001, passed the
California Voting Rights Act and really I won’t go
into all the details, but under the federal
law there are four tests. You have to fail all four tests before you have to switch
to district elections. The California law got
rid of two of those, so now there’s just two tests and it’s just a statistical analysis. There’s no need for plaintiffs to show any kind of discrimination, prejudice anything like that. It’s simply a statistical analysis. So, that’s made it very,
very easy for plaintiffs to win these cases. And so what’s happened is
what we call a quiet tsunami swept California. Before the Act was in
place, there were 29 cities of the almost 500, 29 of
them had district elections. Now we’re at almost 160. So, essentially in 13 years we’ve had almost 130 cities switch
their election systems. In addition to that 215 school districts, 34 community college districts, you see one County Board of Supervisors because the other 57
were already by district. So San Mateo was the
last holdout they got to. (laughs) And now we’re
seeing more and more of the special district, fire districts, hospital districts, airport districts. These challenges are being
brought at all different levels, and what’s driving it
is not that these 400 or 500 jurisdictions are
violating women’s voting rights or acting in a prejudicial manner. What’s driving the massive
change is the dollar figures. As the city manager mentioned, jurisdictions that fight
this have all lost, and they paid huge fees. We used to talk about
Palmdale as 4.7 million plus two million dollars spent, almost two million dollars
spent on their own defense. Blew people’s minds you know, six million dollars in a
fight over an election system. Well now Santa Monica
has put that to shame. Santa Monica has spent they
won’t say exactly how much, but they’ve spent between seven and eight million dollars on their defense, and they lost in trial court and the plaintiffs have asked for 22 million dollars in fees. So, now the judge has not awarded it. Everything is on appeal there but essentially if you want
to fight this in court, you need to have five to
10 million dollars to spend with no chance of getting it back and be ready to absorb five to
twenty million dollars in fees. So that’s why so many
jurisdictions are switching when the challenges come. And I mentioned this
is sweeping the state. In particular it’s
sweeping the Inland Empire. You can see the greens
where the cities that were by district before the
California Voting Rights Act. So, you know no surprise, the big ones. San Bernardino, Riverside,
Menifee and Moreno Valley. The blue ones are all cities
that have switched elections because of California Voting
Rights Act challenges. So you can see all the
blue you know from out here in Indio, 29 Palms, all around. It’s just swept through the Inland Empire. The red ones are the ones
that are facing challenges right now that have not yet decided what they’re gonna do. So you can really see this is not a Palm Desert specific thing. This is definitely sweeping the state and sweeping this region. So the process, the state
sets forth the process. We have to have two initial hearings, council hearings to kind
of inform and educate and get input from you on
communities of interest. Then the draft maps get drawn. So, you actually have the first shot and I’ll talk at the end of this for those that want to try their hand at mapping how the city has made available some tools that you can draw and
propose your own maps, before we start drawing
anything as the consultants. So we’ve got the hearing tomorrow night and then a second one on the 27th. Now because of the timing in
the interest of transparency, the state requires that all draft maps be posted on the city website seven days before they’re
discussed by the council. So you have a chance to
see their maps out there. The flip side of that is that
that means we need the maps in time to post them
seven days in advance. So the 28th, February 28th
is really the deadline for drawing your initial draft map. So it’ll be considered from the beginning. You can still draw more maps later on but they won’t be considered
at the first map hearing, which will happen March 12th. Then we come around for
another hearing March 26th and then final adoption, really the map will be chosen according to the schedule March 26th. And then the council
has to do first reading and second reading so second
reading will be in April. Keep in mind these lines
will be used in 2020. That’s hopefully you’re aware
that this census is April 1st. We’ll get new data next year, and actually get the chance
to revise the lines in 2021 before the 2022 election. So the rules, how do we
have to draw these lines? Well first comes the
federal laws on the left. We have to have an
essentially equal population in each district. There’s a little bit of plus or minus but it’s pretty tight, plus or minus 5% of the target. Then we have to comply with
the Federal Voting Rights Act, which really says no
dividing up of a protected, a neighborhood that’s
heavily protected class. Obviously since our goal
here is to draw a district that reflects the neighborhoods that are heavily protected class, we should be fine on that. But at the same time no
racial gerrymandering. So, you saw the slide
earlier with the city block by city block estimates
of the Latino percentage. You’ve got the maps on your table. Use that to give you a sense
of where the neighborhood is. We can’t go and draw a line just based on the coloring in that. We’re still focusing on the neighborhoods, which is why we’re doing this hearing. Those are federal laws. Then the state has a
brand new set of laws. If you talk to a Cathedral
City and those cities, they didn’t have these. These are brand new as of January 1st. First of all geographically contiguous. So each part of the district needs to touch the other parts of the district. Second don’t divide neighborhoods and communities of interest. You need to keep them together as much as you can within that
equal population requirement. Third we want easily
identifiable boundaries, try to use major roads, rivers, railroads things like that that are easy for voters to understand. And then compact. You can’t bypass one group of people in order to get to another group of people. This is how the state law requires. And if you have two maps
that are essentially equal on all these criteria, then we can get into other factors like respecting voters choices, essentially leaving reelection
decisions up to the voters by trying to avoid
pairing council members, and thinking about
future population growth and things like that. That’s not as much of a
concern this time around because as I mentioned, these lines will only be used in 2020. In 2021, we may want to
take more consideration of how the population will
shift over that decade. So those are the rules. There’s a lot of data. I’m not going to go through all this data but for every district
that’s drawn in a map and proposed, we will process that, and will generate all this data. So, if you want to know
obviously you’re eligible voters, your citizen voting age percentages, you’ll know from the data what percentage of each district is Latino. We’ll also know education levels, age levels, household income. What percentage of the people
in that district are renters versus homeowners. So all this kind of data will be provided. So if someone wants to draw a district and try to get all the renters together, they can look at the map
and see how a given map does on that point, that kind of thing. So those are all and don’t worry, other than total population
these are all optional. If you don’t want to
go through all the data with a fine-tooth comb,
there’s no need to. And this is the map you saw earlier. Essentially the yellows and reds are where the city blocks, the census estimates that a
majority of the eligible voters are Latino in those blocks. So very light greens, the
yellows, and the reds, and you know no surprise,
this is I’m sure everyone is somewhat aware of this. The central downtown
area is much more Latino and that’s why we’re going
through this process, and that’s where the focus
is to get one district that allows that
neighborhood to have a voice. So the trick here is, this is unusual. There are a couple of school districts to do the same system. So this isn’t the only one in the state but it is a way to balance the two ideas. One is get a district in
the downtown central area, give that area voice where at least the allegation was they hadn’t had a voice and been heard before. At the same time districts
they have that advantage of giving small neighborhoods
small areas of voice. They also risk vulcanizing a city. So, if you have five districts, well then you have to be very careful that it doesn’t end up
being this district versus that district and versus that district and everyone fights. So, that’s why, that’s the
thinking behind this hybrid system, where we’ll achieve the goals of California Voting Rights Act, we’ll get a voice for the protected class that was bringing the allegation, without creating that
potentially vulcanizing system in the rest of the city. So the goal in this process is
to draw those two districts. Now the maps that you have
focus on the Central City because essentially we’re
drawing a central city district and then everything else
goes into the other district. So it’s a lot easier to
just focus on the area where we need to draw the one seat, and just know that
everything else goes in. The only catch is is that remember that contiguity rule. So somehow the north and the south parts of the city need to be
connected as we draw these maps. The central seat can’t go
all the way across the city. That’s Sacramento sets these rules and as you know Sacramento
does some fun things. So let me get to the heart
of tonight’s discussion. Communities of interest. It’s a demographers term. It’s a weird term. It really means neighborhoods. It can also mean like industrial
areas, commercial areas, areas that have shared
interests at the city level. So what is a neighborhood? What is community of interest? It’s really whatever the
residents who live in that area define as their neighborhood. It can be a school attendance area. That’s a very common one. It can be an area around a park, an area between major roads. It could be an economic area. You often get areas that have
a lot of Spanish speakers or other language speakers
tend to self-identify or it could just be issue driven. In Pasadena we had a big
issue with a neighborhood that had been working for years to shut down a liquor store, that had been, that was a center of crime and pulling a liquor license
is like a 15 year process. And so the neighborhood had organized, and they defined their neighborhood as the residents who felt
impacted by the crime coming at that store
and who had been working for years on that. So it can be whatever you
identify as those issues and that’s why the city
is doing this outreach to hear from you what do you think of, especially downtown in the
central part of the city what neighborhoods to identify, and then we’ll use those neighborhoods as building blocks to put them together into the downtown district. So you have the maps before you. I think your facilitators
will go into more detail, but that is both why we’re focused here, and we’re not looking for people to debate and come to agreement on
downtown stops at this street or downtown stops at that street. If two people have different opinions we’d love to hear both of them, because a lot of this all gets played out in that equal population requirement. It may be that there we
can put one area together and not the other one. So, we’re looking to get
lots and lots of thoughts brainstorming not to have people debate and come to agreement
on any final decisions. So I think that’s it for me, yeah that’s it for me. You want to talk about, give ’em kickoff into their discussions? (muffled speaking) – So, we are going to transition into our facilitated conversation. Again the questions are here and the facilitator will
walk you through them. The first one it’s really an opportunity for you to any questions
that still remain, you have some time to
write them on the post-it’s and put them there, and
then the second one, it’s more of a brainstorm. Let’s start thinking about
what those communities of interest are and the facilitators all have the definition that Doug used. And then the question number three, you each have a map and
you’ll be able to pinpoint and start identifying where
those communities are. When you hear there’s a
facilitator at each table, when you hear a timer going off, that just means it’s a
sign for the facilitator to transition into the next question. (crowd talking) – Okay if I could have
your attention please. We’re going to, Doug and I are
going to read the questions and go through and answer
them as quickly as possible, because you can see we
have a lot of questions and we’d like to be able to
answer them for you tonight. Doug I’ll go get the questions and we’ll decide who answers it. What’s with the cameras? No notice or explanation. The cameras, whatever
cameras might be here or not, city cameras, so I cannot speak, I can’t speak towards that. I believe that we’ve had some press here. Excuse me if you could
quiet down a little bit that way everybody can hear the answers. Isn’t it true that the City Council wants two districts to hold on to their seats? (audience applauding) We learned that most lived
in South Palm Desert, if you would please be quiet, everybody could hear the whole question, so, we can get back to you. We learned the most live
in South Palm Desert, so if the city went to five districts, some would have to move. The one thing that I can tell you is that during the entire time that
we have been discussing this with the City Council members, I have not once had a
single council member ask the question how would this impact me? How will, will I have to run
against one of my constituents? None of them have
actually asked a question relative to where they
live or where districts would be formed. I can’t tell you what is in
anybody’s heart of hearts. I can’t tell you that I
have not had that question. So, I have not seen evidence
that they are trying to go to two districts
to protect themselves. How can residents trust
that the two district system won’t be abused? Let’s say a progressive
Latino is elected to represent the donut hole, and then the other four can
gang up against the one vote, always vote against any
new ideas thus making that person powerless. I believe that in a political system such as we have in America, you do see people
regularly form alignments to vote with or against others. I don’t know that there is a distinction that there is ganging up
relative to particular districts, but Doug you’ve seen the outcome of this. – Yeah I would say we’ve seen
districts work fantastic. I actually grew up in
Santa Cruz and Watsonville, went to districts and it
was the greatest thing ever happened and it turned
’em into a powerhouse in the region and I’ve seen
cities where it went badly. The point here about
four ganging up on one, can happen in a five district
system or in this system, and it’s the flip side is
you have to guard against when you go to district elections. So it’s not unique to this system. It’s a risk in any five
district system as well. (muffled speaking) – Why isn’t the city letting
residents talk at the meetings? It feels like the city is hiding tough questions or objections. There are oodles of opportunities to talk and I would encourage everybody to talk. You have the opportunity
to come to any one of four public hearings that will be held. Those will be held in
the City Council Chamber. The first one is tomorrow night. Look for them on agendas. That is your opportunity to
come speak on the subject. Our goal here was to
provide as much information and to educate people
regarding the process that they would be going through. We also have communication
and dialogue going by answering questions as we’re doing now. Why did the city wait to be sued? The CVRA has been law for years. Why not, I’m sorry sometimes
I have a tough time with the penmanship here. Okay why not do the right thing so residents feel better represented? The city actually waited because we had received a letter from an attorney’s firm
indicating that they thought we were not compliant with the California Voting Rights Act. We received that about a year or so, before suit was actually filed. During that period of time, we retained demographers to
take a look at the statistics. We honestly didn’t know
if we were doing anything that was violating the
California Voting Rights Act. What we were able to determine was that there’s no conclusive
case that could be made one way or the other. Doug do you have any more information and you were taking a look at, we looked at case law, we
looked at our districts, we looked at our
demographics, the census data, and we were not able to
establish conclusively one way or another
whether or not there were any violations and therefore
we did not elect to go ahead and initiate a change. Why two districts instead of five? We’ve talked about that a fair amount. The idea is we’re trying to retain the bulk of the system
under which Palm Desert has been successful and has progressed and become the vibrant, successful
economically stable city that it is today. At the same time we want to
respect everybody’s rights to have a voice in government, and we need to do that by
forming a second district. That is why the settlement
agreement called for the formation of two districts. Is the undeveloped land
between Frank Sinatra Drive and the I 10 interstate within
Palm Desert city limits? Yes it is. The city limits actually
stop at the railroad tracks and not at the I 10 itself. So it stops 200 feet short of the I 10. How does the creation of the district improve representation? The idea behind the
California Voting Rights Act what it requires is that
any protected class, any minority class, have the opportunity to influence the outcome of elections, to be heard and to influence. It’s no guarantee that
somebody of the minority class will be elected either in their district or somebody or where they are not the majority in the district. What it does do is set
up a system under which everybody’s voice can be heard. Their candidate of
choice might not actually be a member of the same minority. Could be of a different minority. It could be of a majority class. The idea is to make sure that
they have the opportunity to influence the outcome of elections. What does the business community have in common with the minority district? I don’t know. – I presume this is because
it’s kind of the downtown area. It’s just proximity. It’s geographic proximity. So part of the goal of these hearings is to hear from the
residents in these areas you know what neighborhoods
around downtown have connection, have shared interests and
which neighborhoods don’t. So we can draw the district
to follow what the residents in this area feel makes
sense to go together and what doesn’t. – Pull some off there? – Sure. How’s it fair to limit the so-called downtown district residents
to vote for only one council member every four years,
when everyone else gets to vote for four candidates
to represent their interests? This is the big question right between, you’d have the most say in the most seats if you stayed at large. Then everyone could vote on all five but the idea behind the Voting Rights Act, both the Federal and the California Acts are that the idea that in neighborhood made up heavily of one protected class gets out voted repeatedly. And so districts are the
way to get around that to give them one voice as
someone hinted at before, they still have to find
a way to get three votes for their issues. Keep in mind one thing
we always emphasize, this is not the County Supervisors. City Council members do
not rule their districts like a king or queen like
County Supervisors tend to do. It still takes three votes to do anything. So this gets a voice on the council but that voice is still got to find a way to get two more voices
to vote for any issues, and that’s true everywhere. Are census blocks roughly
the same size and population? No, you can have, there
are lots of census blocks that have nobody in them. They’re just open space you know freeways, golf courses, waterways
and then there are blocks that’ll have an apartment building and will have 1500 people in it. So, no they’re not. The goal is to have them
reflect city blocks, so in urban nice square city block areas, census blocks are just city blocks. It’s when you get out into open space that they start to get a little weird, and I’ll show you some of that later on. Why is northeast corner
of the park shown as 25-35% Latino when no
one lives at the park? And similar question about Lincoln School. It’s because you’re looking at paper maps and it’s hard to see. I’m gonna show you an interactive map where you can zoom in and
really see the detail, and what often happens is it’s the park plus the houses that back onto the park or plus the houses that are one right next to it somehow or another that are actually getting counted. So yes there may be 300 people in a park and they all live in
two apartment buildings, but you know the data
is not house by house. It’s block by block and
some of those blocks have strange borders. And how are the number of council members proportionate to population per district? So this is the equal population rule. So a district that elects
one fifth of the council must have one fifth of
the city population in it, and the district that elects
four fifths of the council has to have four fifths of
the city’s population in it. And there was a question that came up is are we talking about
voters or total people? And its total population is counted by the last census. So it is the equal number of people. It’s not an equal number of voters. So one district has to
have four times that, in this case the district
two will have four times the population of district one because it elects four times the number of council members. – It is essentially the same thing. – Yeah. How is this not gerrymandering? Well that’s why we’re here, to get your input on what are
logical reasonable borders for the districts and not
randomly gerrymandered lines. One trick is I mentioned before
no racial gerrymandering. Race cannot be the predominant factor. You can’t go block by block
based on the colors on that map. We have to look at neighborhoods. Gerrymandering, so racial
gerrymandering is a legal term. Gerrymandering is just a pejorative term. I would say a gerrymander is any map that the person speaking doesn’t like. The goal is to draw a
district that makes sense. There’s no, you can’t sue
someone for a gerrymander. You can only sue them
for a racial gerrymander, but you can you know make your voice heard and get a get a map that makes sense. – I have a couple here that come, first there’s an easy one, why is Big Horn not on the map? Palm Desert is long and narrow and hard to all fit onto one map and for the size and geography or the layout of the maps we have, Big Horn at the far
southern tip did not fit on. It is not a majority minority district. (muffled speaking) I don’t know, the city buys code areas. (muffled speaking) Is it the far north? Okay both the far north and the far south are the same thing. None of them have majority
minority areas in them, and they are, we’re just
at the extreme ends. – Let me enter that too. When the draft maps come out, we put them, you’ll have a PDF version that shows the central detail because that’s the main focus. They’ll also go on an interactive website where if you’re comfortable
with Google Maps, that’s all this is is
plus and minuses zoom in, so you can zoom in and
look anywhere in the city at the details and see all those details. With a piece of paper
you’re limited obviously in what we can do. – We have three that
are relatively similar. Who decided that it had
to be two districts? Has it been decided on two districts or can we vote for five districts and will there be a discussion about having five districts or
is two districts assumed? Two districts was
proposed in the settlement both the city as represented
by the City Council, your elected officials, and the plaintiffs agreed to a two district solution. The settlement is based upon this solution that it will be two districts. You are entitled to submit and to propose whatever
districts you would choose including a five district solution. – [Participant] (muffled speaking) because I think the
question was who proposed it and your answer was that
the city in conjunction with the plaintiffs. – Agree to it.
– The plaintiffs did not propose it. So the question was who proposed? – If the question was
who proposed, the City Council proposed a two district solution. (muffled speaking) – Yes.
– Yes. (muffled speaking) It could be yes. – By the council. – Okay we do have a number
of questions regarding ranked choice voting. Ranked choice voting we
have not talked about a lot. The key to remember is
that ranked choice voting is easy for the voter. You vote for your first choice candidate, your second choice candidate and your third choice candidate. There are some complexities
on how the votes are actually counted. We will be talking more
about that in future, and I’d like to defer that. Apparently we have some handouts that are available to you as you exit. David is waving them
furiously to get my attention. So those will be available for you to take a look at advance. We’re also working on making
a video tape for YouTube or YouTube friendly video tape that will explain how
the votes are counted. The good thing to remember
is it is easy for the voters. – What is a population unit? This one came up a couple times. So on the yellow map you see the little black dashed units. Population units are they’re not official. They’re nothing. They’re not legally binding in any way. NDC creates these in an
effort to create tools that residents can easily
use to draw and propose maps. So what you’ll see in the tools I’m gonna show you is we
give you the population data for each of those little population units. Essentially if we gave
you the total population for every census block, it would take hours and
no one would be able to accurately add up 300 different numbers and get at the exact number. So the population units are designed to be flexible enough that you can draw the district you want while not being overwhelming and how many numbers you have to add up if you want to add them up. So that’s just a mapping tool. They’re not binding. If you don’t like where the dash lines go, split it, you know as
long as you follow a road you’ll be following a census
block and we can subdivide it. So they’re not binding. They’re simply a tool to help
make it easier to draw maps. – Just a facilitator’s timekeeping, we have like one more minute and we still have a lot of questions, and for transparency I did move one here that it’s about ranked choice voting because that one was just answered. So, don’t think that I’m
taking questions unanswered. – We’ll need to talk more quickly or find a different way
to answer your questions. Obviously those that you are interested in having a question
tonight can stick around a little bit later. Some of these are statements,
low-income housing is not readily available. I would certainly agree with that. Why do we need five council
members for two districts? (all laughing) I actually saw this one earlier and checked in with a city attorney, and we believe that
we’ve never seen a city with fewer than five council members. We’re not sure if state
law establishes that or do? – You’d have to be a chartered city to have fewer than five council members. There are school districts
with only three board members but they’re really small. – Why not three districts? North Central and South
again the settlement, the terms of the settlement
call for two districts that’s what we’re focusing
on but you’re entitled to propose different solutions if you would like them to be considered. How much did the city settle for? If that’s a question as to dollar amounts, we will pay, as I understand
we pay the plaintiffs attorneys costs, but there are no
other, no settlement monies otherwise paid directly to the plaintiffs. We’ve agreed to spend up to $350,000 implementing the ranked choice vote. Population of California
citizens versus snowbirds. – So, hopefully this is,
actually let me do a PSA. Hopefully you’re aware
April 1st is census day. So hopefully you’re all aware and you’re ready for those
mailers and you’re eager to fill them out quickly and turn them in. On the PSA side, California
between the state, the county, the cities
and local organizations gets $2,000 per year for
every person counted. So if you’re not counted, this area is losing $2,000. So the trick is April 1st, and the census arrived on that is as neutral a day as you could find. I do a lot of work in Arizona and they all want that count March 15th with all the baseball people in town, but then I tell them
it could be August 15th and no one would be in town. So April 1st is kind of the the best day that Bureau has found to
do that as a neutral day. So it is where are you
residing on April 1st. Can a candidate living in district one run at large in district two? No so each district does act as a district and so you have to be candidate in that. You have to reside in that district and only the people who
reside in that district can vote for the representative
from that district. Okay, percentage of, this percentage of permanent population versus snow birds. We don’t know. We just have the data
for April 1st of 2010. Soon to be April 1st of 2020. – If I can, one of the questions, how can one district go
against another district? My experience in my
communications with my counterpart city managers and other
cities across the state, who’ve gone through
the districting process and who have ended up with geographically limited areas, they all
attest to one district fighting against another
or competing with a number for the same limited funds. In other words if one district
gets a million dollars to go towards resurfacing
streets in their area, another district says wait a minute, if they get a million dollars
and I get a million dollars I want a million dollars
to go for the library that I would like built in my district. And somebody else says and
then I need a million dollars to go for an animal shelter. And so they do, any
city by its very nature has limited financial resources. The experience that I’ve
learned from my colleagues is that it does reduce
itself to competition one against another for the same resources, and it becomes much more
difficult to do large meaningful projects. You will never according to them, they say they have difficulties
doing a 10 million dollar project because they don’t
have 50 million dollars to spread all around the city, and they can’t get their colleagues, one can’t get their colleagues to support the ten million dollar
district in their project. As Doug indicated earlier, it sounds as though some
cities with districting are successful and have
it work well for them. The outcome remains to be seen. Plaintiffs are asking for five districts, says agreement was just
to start the process. The city says they agreed
to this in December. I’m not sure of this. The city yes did agree to two districts as part of the settlement
agreement in December and the plaintiffs did agree to it. At the same time I can’t speak
for what they’re asking for or not or what they were, if they were intending to do something other than it was agreed to. What is the city’s total population to the nearest one? – So according to the 2010 census, which is the number that drives
how many people per district the city’s population is 48,445. So we know it’s obviously grown since then but that’s the number. So the central kind of downtown district needs one-fifth of that, about just under 10,000
people into that district. Why did you set up two districts that seems to make the doughnut
hole district a ghetto? That would be true with
five districts too. You would have (crowd talking) hold on. You would have one district
isolated in the central area whether you have one and
a multi-member district or a five district system. It’s called out because
that’s how you settle the California Voting Rights Act. That’s how you address the goals of the California Voting Rights Act is to create a district for the area that is alleging a lack of representation. Are we limited to just one
member from one district and four from the second district or can we still propose two and three if we increase the size of the donut hole? Not under this settlement. So the settlement agreement calls for a single-member downtown district and then a four member outside district. Keep in mind if you made
the Central District twice as big an order to
have two council members, you would then be diluting
the voting strength of the Latinos in that central district, by putting in golf clubs in other areas that are outside of the central area. That’s why it’s the size it is. – Going back to the question
about creation of the ghetto, I think one of the things
that the City Council was very cognizant of was
that this Central Downtown District contains a number
of the gems of the city. Depending on where the
boundaries are drawn, Civic Center Park, The Aquatic Center, The McCallum Theater, The
College of the Desert. What we’re doing the eight million dollars we’re currently putting into renovating and making San Pablo
the heart of the city, all of this speaks towards a richness that would never be
classified as a ghetto. The boundaries could or could not include, as I understand, could or
could not include El Paseo. Again not something that
you would typically see in what would be a ghetto setting. So, I don’t think it’s
a fair characterization to say by any extent that
the center of the city– (muffled speaking) (audience applauding) You’re correct. They are assets to the entire community. They are not housing. More snowbirds questions, I’m gonna set aside some of the ones that I think that we’ve addressed. (audio cuts off) in one
district not gerrymandering. I believe that we’ve
addressed that as well. Can NDC data be posted on the city website since it was on the
PowerPoint but not discussed? – Yes so the mapping tools will present, actually give you the
data in very usable forms. If somebody does have
their own GIS mapping, the data is public data. We’re happy to send it
to whoever wants it. So yes all of our data is completely transparent and available. Oh this is the question,
zero to 25% is mapped as a majority of the city. This is on the demographic maps that you have on your
tables, the purple areas. Obviously most of the city is purple. The same thing asking can we see data for breakdowns within the 0-25. And yes the data is available. One of the tools we’ll give you is just an Excel spreadsheet. So anyone that’s comfortable
with Excel can look at it. Population unit by population unit and the data census block by census block is available for anyone that
has GIS mapping software. How do you determine the population in each neighborhood? That’s what those little
population units are for. There’s actually a PDF that will be I think available tomorrow, and it’s already on the city’s website, that you can’t download that
will show you the numbers for each of those population units, and if you’re comfortable with Excel, there’s an Excel spreadsheet
that goes with it. And why have these
means if we already know the downtown district
will be gerrymandered around the Latino people? This is, this comes up a lot. So, allegations under the
California Voting Rights Act of a violation are race driven. The remedy to that is not. So we’re focused on the downtown because that’s where the neighborhoods are that are heavily Latino, that’s where the California
Voting Rights Act is related, but now we
switch not to pick out which blocks are red yellow and green. The reason for this meeting is to pick out the neighborhoods, downtown
and to put them together in a way that makes sense. And you know any way we do
that is going to empower Latino voters who live downtown
to have a stronger voice, but now we’re drawing, now we transition from CVRA allegations that are race-based to drawing maps that are neighborhood based and that’s why we’re doing these forums. – Does redistricting change
when City Council members are up for re-election? And when are they up for reelection? It does not change when they are up for, the proposal that we have would not change when they were up for re-election. The districting would be in place in time for the 2020 election. In 2020, we will have
three council members up, that will be Kathleen
Kelly the Mayor Pro Term, Mayor Jean Ernest Andy and
Council member Susan Marie Weber. Two years later, the
remaining two council members would be up for re-election, should they choose to run again and that would be Seby
Jonathan and Jan Harnick. This one in interest of transparency, I’m reading all of these, even if some of them been asked before, just so that you know that we’re
not skipping over anything. Some of them I don’t often get an answer. When the owners of property are white and they rent to only Latinos, does that interfere with the blocking out of the voting areas? I’m not sure I understand that. – So, the demographics of voting is based on who lives there. It’s not based on who owns the property. So, if you live there you’re
counted by the census. If you are a registered voter there, you get to vote in the election. So homeowners who don’t live
in the district can’t vote in the district. – Why Latino population is left behind? I don’t completely understand that or the leaving behind. Why are we doing a two district with potential for another lawsuit for not going with five? The two district solution was a settlement as was pointed out originally proposed by the City Council and
agreed to by the plaintiffs. Because the City Council believes that it best represents what
has made Palm Desert strong and successful in the past, while respecting the
rights and the interests of all parties within the city. Also it technically and in spirit complies with the requirements of the CVRA. Therefore, we don’t
believe that there will be a sustainable case
or charge by somebody who challenged and
wanted to force the city to move to five districts. As I always tell people, this is America. Anybody can sue anybody for anything. So there is never a guarantee
that we won’t be sued. The idea is to minimize
the exposure to suits that would have merit
and strong foundation. – Let’s see what else we have here. Residents in district one can’t vote for council members in the at-large. Well this is the tricky wording is that it’s not an at-large district. It’s two districts, so you only get to vote
for the council members from your district. Any chance that council members would consider five districts? Yes that’s the point earlier and I should clarify the
council can change it and decide to go to five. Down the road also a ballot measure, you know a resident ballot measure could change how it’s set up. Is the agreement legal? Does it represent the spirit of law? As we’ve talked about yes
it brings the representation and the district to the area
that allege not having it, and it was signed off on by the court. So yes it’s legal. Maps, how is pollution size distributed across the cities and through
seasons based on income and based on points of education? Across this, I assume this
is back to the April 1st issue I think, where the
count is the population as of April 1st of every
year ending in zero. Obviously there’s no rules
for income or education that just plays out through
where people choose to live and where they have the
opportunity to choose to live. – Otherwise can grab your Dr. Pepper and try talking into that. The CVRA was passed in 2002. Why did it take 18 years for
our City Council to address? It’s non something, oh
non-compliance with CVRA and only after lawsuit was initiated. I think it’s fair to say that Palm Desert like most other cities in
the state was not tracking or following the CVRA
for a number of years until a couple of attorneys started actively pursuing it around the state, was not on our radar. – Just on a timing front until 2017, until yeah 2016, cities could not switch by vote of the council. They had to put it to the voters and the voters were
repeatedly voting it down, which then led to a lawsuit because when the voters voted it down, it was polarized and
that even where there was polarized voting, that
generated the evidence of a violation, so Vallejo or not Vallejo, Vicelia put it on the
ballot, voted it down, sued because that vote. So in 2016, the law changed
and it gave small cities the ability to change by council vote. So of those 126, about a
120 of them are since 2016. So it’s not that this
really played around. Really cities couldn’t do it unless they were sued until 2016-2017. So, it’s not that they
ignored it for all that time. It’s really just the last two years, and I should say not the last
two years they ignored it. It’s only been an issue
that they could act on for last two years and
you see the timeline they were pretty fast. – Did the council consider
more than two districts? If so what were any positives
more than two districts that were discussed and
what were those positives? When the (audio cuts off) was
filed actually even before that, when we were first put on notice that this was an issue, there was a lot of discussion
about five districts, and what it would do to the city. I’m trying to think of what the positives would have been. Obviously it would have resulted in greater geographic
dispersion of council members and elected officials. It is true that we do
currently have the majority of the council members
either living in the center of the city, ostensibly in
the downtown district area, and in the south part of the city, where I believe historically most of the elected officials have lived. However they’ve also lived
in the far north of the city and we have an example of that right here. So there is some dispersion, but it is not great. If a geographic dispersion
of City Council members would be considered a positive then that would have been
one of the positives, and that is all that comes to
mind from those conversations to my recollection. (muffled speaking) I believe in other cities if they have a different dispersion of
protected class of minorities then they would be suitable
for other solutions. In Palm Desert, we really
just have a concentration of protected class Latinos
in one portion of the city, in the center portion of the city. So we would not have been
able to achieve the objectives of the CVRA by three or four districts, that I could envision. How is it conducive to
employee issues or struggles will bind districts when it is stated that districts are divisive? Issues or struggles will bind, absolutely. – My question was if we keep hearing that the councils are having too
difference about districts, we will then have people
outvoting each other. How is it that we are
supposed to come together and draw these boundaries for communities based on the concept while we keep hearing at this meeting that
district (muffled speaking). I’m confused as to which side
we are going to listen to during the (muffled speaking), can you explain how (muffled speaking)? – It is the belief of the City Council and those that were
involved in the settlement that all of the city would bind together all the elected officials,
all five of them would bind together in an attempt
to protect and to develop and to promote the downtown district. We’ve been working that
direction since 2013 when a new strategic plan was passed, that was adopted, that included a vision for developing a heart of the city. The assertion at that
time in the belief was there is no downtown. There’s no there there. If you have to talk to somebody and say let’s meet downtown
for a cup of coffee, we didn’t know where downtown was. They wanted to develop a heart and a core. So since 2013, we have
been working towards developing a downtown
district that will be an asset to the entire community. We continue to believe that
there will be an investment of interest, capital,
resources, and reserves to develop, as you can see is
going on on San Pablo Avenue, and is planned for El Paseo and is planned for areas
around the north area of the Civic Center. These are all projects that will have, be of interest to the entire community, all five council members because they are a long-term goal that we have
been reaching to achieve. So it was the belief
that having two districts would continue to bind everybody working on a common
interest and a common vision for the downtown. – Okay just doing my job as a facilitator. So, I’m gonna interrupt. We are supposed to finish by 7:30. There’s still quite a
few questions up here. My recommendation is that Doug
does have a 15-minute demo that’s very important about
how if any of you want to draw a map and submit it. Think you wanna watch and
be here for his presentation and learn about the
tools that will allow you to draw those maps. So, my recommendation
is that we move that, and then if you have any
questions, if your questions were not answered Lauri can
maybe answer them separately, just because I want to get
us out of here on time. – Okay let me jump in, my
high-tech projector system. There we go. So there are two steps to this process. One is identifying the
communities of interests in the neighborhoods downtown
and in the central region, and the idea is we use
those as building blocks to develop a district that makes sense. The next is actually
drawing that district, and one of the things
that the City Council has done was to ask NDC to
provide these tools that we use, that really empowers it. I always love this because it lets people get into the kind of guts of this process. You don’t have to just weigh in yes or no on what maps you like or don’t like, you can actually draw a map. So, one thing to emphasize, these are optional empowerment tools. You don’t have to use these. This is all about engaging the community and trying to make things easier but there’s no requirement
that you do anything. You can just weigh in yes or
no on which draft maps you like once they’re released. And there are a couple of steps to this. First of all there’s a paper map. It’s actually very
similar to the yellow map that you have in front of you, except that each population unit has a population number on it. And I will show that in a minute. For those that just
want to deal with paper and sketch something out that works great. There’s an Excel sheet. For those that want to
see more demographics and then there’s an online tool, which is tricky to use
because it’s powerful but it really gives you
city block by city block control of the process. So, first of all we have this
public participation map. It’s the map you’re looking at but with numbers on it. You can see you know
here’s a population unit with zero people in it. Here’s a population unit
with 383 people in it, and this is a PDF on the city website. We can have it at the hearing tomorrow and all you do is start
wherever you want to start and add together these
little population units until you get to the target, which is between 9205 and 10,173. That’s the range the district has to be in for the Central District. And then the second
district is everything else. So if you want to focus
on the outside district, think about areas you’re taking
out of the outside district but it’s probably easiest to
try to draw the central one. The one catch that’s mentioned here is that under state law,
districts have to be contiguous. So somehow the north
district needs to touch this, the north part of the district needs to touch the south part of the district. So it has to come around one
side or the other of this. And as I mentioned before,
these population units are created for ease of line drawing. They’re not restrictive. So some of them and they follow streets. So some of them are funny shape because the streets are funny. If you want to divide a population unit, go ahead and divide it. Draw it on your piece of paper and when we put it in the computers, we have that block by block control. So we can divide it for you. So you can just again really easy, you just add up the
numbers until you get it in that population range and you’re done. Either turn it into its City Hall or what’s more and more popular is people just take their cameras,
take a picture of their map and email it in, there’s an
email address right here. It makes it really easy to send it in. So that’s the really simple one. Just piece of paper, pencil, probably a calculator
and that’s all you need. There’s a second map on the website and it’s on the website because
it works with an Excel file. If you’re comfortable with Excel, and we always say don’t try
to learn Excel for this, but if you’re comfortable with Excel and more and more people are, this will work with you. On the map instead of population counts, it has ID numbers. Just one to whatever
it is, one to 82 or 83. Then the excel file is a worksheet that has those same population units and all the numbers for it, and in the yellow area you just enter in. I want this in district one, and I want this, the
population units you want in district one, you just put a one there. A second sheet is behind,
it will automatically do all the math for you. So if you’re comfortable with Excel, this will do the math for you and it will give you ethnic numbers. It’ll give you the total population, the citizen voting age
population, those numbers. So, you can know how
Latino that central seat is as you draw it. Well yeah, so this is on the website. Again both the PDF map with the ID numbers and the Excel file is already
on the city’s website. So those are the two easy approaches. Oh yeah I even had handy
little arrows okay. So the third approach, so those are all, that data is all population
unit by population unit. If you want to really
fine-tune control your maps the next step gets into
the online mapping tool, which is also a link on the, I think it represents PD.org website. It’s just linked from the city website. If you go to this it takes
a little bit of time. What we found is about half
the people that try this, get frustrated, give up
and go back to the PDF. The other half though once you
figure it out, they love it. Almost no one draws one map. You either draw no map, people get into it draw
two or three or four. Also the folks that write the software, they’re upgrading it. There’s this little box right here that says EN. This is the first jurisdiction, we’ve used this tool maybe 50 times. This is the first time they’ve ever had it available in Spanish. So, EN is for English. You click on that little
pulldown and ES for Espanol. You can switch it to Spanish. There’s also Vietnamese and Mandarin if you want to use it in those languages, but the other thing they’ve added is tips. So, first you create
your user ID, you log in, then go to tips and that
will walk you screen section by screen section around the screen and tell you what everything does. They just added that in because people found this way too hard to figure out. Let me see, oops we went too far. So the main thing is over here you have your target. That’s you’re going to tell
I want to put these areas in district one. Then you use, you can
either click census block by census block or you can
draw a shape around the area and put it in and it will
tell you the population you’ve chosen. It would tell you the resulting population as you draw this and
I’ll show this all to you in just a second, but the key things are use the tips that’ll walk you through
the screen very simply. It takes about 90 seconds
and it will introduce you to the whole thing. You use your target, how
you want to select them. Down here theme, one of my
least favorite demographer terms of all time. Theme is what’s shown
as colors on the map, so that if you click on that pulldown, one of the options is district ID. It’ll just show your district colored in. That’s also Latino population. So, those of you that are
asking about the details of that big citywide map you have, if you click Latino CVAP, and it will color this map
in with those same colors and you can zoom in. Speaking of zooming in plus
minus your usual little hand tools, things that hopefully
are familiar to you. When you finish your map, there’s two things you have to do. One is under plan integrity, you can check to see this contiguous. It’ll check and make sure
that it’s contiguous. And then you submit your plan and here’s one key thing I’ll mention. When you hit submit plan, it will ask for your name, and then there’s a box that says explain, it’s your opportunity to explain your map. So, it’s limited in how many
characters you can put it in but that’s your opportunity to say why you think your map makes sense, and that goes to the council and gets posted for everyone else to see. So we definitely recommend doing that. None of it’s required. The only thing that’s required is an email address to log in. But this gives you city
block by city block control, and I know we’re running
a little bit late, but let me see if I can
show you just very quickly how this works. Oh my Wi-Fi has died, because we’re running
late, my Wi-Fi is dead. We don’t have Wi-Fi here but play around with it. Sorry, we had to use a little MiFi device and apparently the battery has died. So, I’ve lost my internet access, but essentially that’s it. You just click. Now where it gets frustrating is as you zoom in, you have
to pick block by block or you draw a little they call it a lasso, your lasso areas. It gets tricky. You can unselect areas
as you go through it, but the whole thing is this
gives you block by block control and as I mentioned about half the people understandably get frustrated. I would say this program
was mainly written in 2009 for the 2011 redistricting. It’s only been kind of slightly adjusted. They’ll update it when
it makes financial sense, which is next year for them, but try it out. It lets you have very fine-tune control and if it’s too frustrating, just go back to the paper map, or I would say we’ll take a napkin. Anything you want to draw
a map on and send in, if you want to grab a city
map and draw your proposed districts, we will still
run the numbers on it. What these tools let you do
is get population balanced. So, we take a couple of questions and then we’ll break and
just maybe two questions, and then I’ll stick around one-on-one. I think you were first. (muffled speaking) Well you’re actually
sitting with the webmaster for the represent PD site. So, let me have (mumbles). – If you go to www.representpd.org, there’s a link to both the paper PDF map that you get a photo of to the Excel kit and also to this online
mapping tool with instructions. We have all that (audio cuts off) Spanish and English on the website, (muffled speaking) representpd.org. – And let me add to that
map that I talked about, unfortunately my Wi-Fi is gone, but you’ll also be able to use, all the maps that come in
will be posted in this map, as I mention we can zoom
it out and see the details without having to go through
this complicated tool. Yes. (muffled speaking) Yes annual contiguity. So those are the rules set by Sacramento and the federal government. So we have to follow federal law and we have to follow state law and have a strong one. Okay so I’m happy to answer
questions one-on-one, but let me allow some wrap up here. – Okay, so thank you, just
a few things to wrap up. At your table you have a few things. You have a timeline of when the public meetings are going to be. That’s behind the agenda. Tomorrow’s the first public hearing and you also have a survey. We would really appreciate
to hear your feedback, so that we can see you know
how else we can improve or what we need to respond to. So if you can complete the
survey before you leave, if your questions were not answered either Lauri or Doug will
take them individually just because we want to make sure that if people have to go they can, and we will be collecting
all of those yellow maps. So if you made notes on your table, identified communities of interest, all of that is going to start informing. Again we’re not drawing maps right now, but start informing Doug, as he will be preparing maps, and finally you all have
a chance to submit a map. So that is it, thank you. (muffled speaking) Talk to people if they
want to talk to you, okay so Karina is avail, Kentania is here, if anybody has, and Lorene, if anybody has a question
directly for them, they’re there but we
really need to wrap up. I apologize we’re running
like very late at 7:41, but thank you everybody.

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